Does Ontario really need five Pension Plans?

9 responses

  1. Andy Moysiuk says:

    Intersting summary, I offer a few clarifications relating to HOOPP:

    1)Hoopp is a private trust, the largest of its type in Canada. By its design, the Ontario taxpayer is not structurally responsible for the outcomes at Hoopp.
    2)Hoopp’s size, measured by net assets is in order of $40 billion. Certain investment strategies are grossed up to reflect economic effect from an accounting standpoint.
    3)Hoopp is among the few plans in the world of size that is in a surplus. Investment approaches, philosophies, and liability profile in each institution actually differ quite dramatically. All the firms noted have sufficient scale to operate very efficiently, certainly by customary asset management firm standards.
    4)I am unware of many instances where any of the funds noted compete on deals, no doubt some overlap, but we are more likely to partner verses disort the marketplace, especially in global transactions of scale.
    5)HOOPP Capital Partners, the private equity arm, presently has at least $150 million presently invested in start up and venture, defined as bsuiness plans having burn rate attributes. Many other of our pe investments are growth capital, low leverage situations, with some venture like attributes. It is true that we do mostly eschew traditional venture capital limited partnerships with many underlying investments, we simply favour more bespoke, concentrated means of execution in Canada, the US and Europe.

  2. Greg says:

    Good article. Based on your numbers, OMERS sure stands out the expense side vs its larger peers. Another interesting data point would be to show the resulting performance records.

  3. TBT says:

    How come the fact that members of some of those pension plans MATCH what the government contributes? As a member of one of the plans I contribute 10% of my own salary. I can’t speak of how the other plans work, but 10% is a number I am comfortable with. Each plan also has different investment strategies which subject its members to different levels of risk — the same risk tolerance cannot be said for all members of all plans. Also the actuarial analysis is specific to each plan: a teacher will statistically live longer than a firefighter or a police-person.

    While I believe in leveraging economies of scale, we should do so through common technology and back-bones between the funds — not necessarily merging the funds into one superfund.

  4. Irwin says:

    Please get your facts straight. Hoopp is in no way affiliated with the government and the taxpayers certainly are not on the hook. Also the assets under management are 37 billion not 73 and the investment management expense isn’t even in the ballpark.

  5. Mark McQueen says:

    Hi Irwin

    Thanks for stopping by. How is the HOOPP not affiliated with the government? Is there a private hospital system that has been kept underground all these years? According to their annual report: “Among our 260,000 members and retirees are nurses, medical technicians, food services and laundry workers – and the many other people who work hard to provide you with your valued Ontario healthcare services.”

    According to pg. 32 of the 2010 financial statements, HOOPP had assets of $72.6 billion. http://www.hoopp.com/annualreport/2010_AnnualReport.pdf You are thinking, perhaps, about their “net” assets of $35.7 billion. But since each pension plan manages all of its assets, and spends money administering same, I thought doing the calcs on the gross asset base made more sense.

    In a defined benefit plan, employers are on the hook to make up any pension deficit that results from poor returns or unecessarily high management costs. HOOPP may be a “trust”, but if the fund is in a deficit, the employer (ie. the taxpayer) isn’t absolved of responsibility for making up the difference.

    MRM

  6. Mark McQueen says:

    Hi Andy

    As always, you add to the discussion on this site whenever you drop by.

    If hospital employers are not on the hook for any pension deficits at HOOPP, then I stand corrected, but I have a question. How is a deficit dealt with should one ever arise on a sustained basis? Does the actuary not require the employer to post an L/C, unless it is prepared to make special one-time lump sum payments to make up the difference?

    As for competiton between Ontario pension plans, there are plenty of situations that come to mind. For the casual reader, the names Oxford and Cadillac Fairview will be among the better known examples.

    MRM

  7. Mark McQueen says:

    Hi TBT

    Thanks for the perspective.

    I’m not recommending the government merge the actual investment funds; there are too many complications for that to be doable. The assets would have to be segregated for existing employees. But new government workers are a different story, and could all invest in the same fund.

    For the existing plans, a federated management system would work even with segregated asset management, and back office collaboration is a slam dunk.

    MRM

  8. I question the overall concept due to teh “too big to fail” nature of the superplan. I further question the use of gross asset numbers rather than net – though your argument would likely be even more compelling under net numbers as expense ratios would be much higher

  1. December 5, 2011

    […] weeks ago, Ontario was abuzz over a blog post by Mark McQueen suggesting that the Canadian Province scrap its five large defined benefit pensions […]

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